The Insider | Aaron Fisher
By Damian Jennings - Tuesday, March 4, 2025
In this episode, Aaron Fisher shares his journey into the world of magic, discussing his early influences, the challenges of learning and performing magic, and the importance of community and teaching in the magic world. He emphasizes the need for integration between technique and performance, and how understanding audience engagement can enhance the magic experience. In this conversation Aaron discusses the evolution of magic performance techniques, the importance of kindness in teaching, and the balance between exploring and mastering skills in magic. He reflects on his experiences with influential figures in the magic community and shares insights from his latest Masterclass and the reprint of his book, The Paper Engine, which is dropping at the end of the month.
Audio Version
Video Version
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Aaron Fisher and His Journey
05:58 The Challenges of Learning Magic
11:56 The Importance of Teaching and Learning
17:49 The Connection Between Technique and Audience Engagement
24:03 The Gravity Half Pass: A Deep Dive
36:14 Lessons from Masters: Shaping Teaching Ethos
Transcript(AI)
Damian (00:00.984)
Hello and welcome to this episode of the Insider. My guest today, Aaron Fisher, because you know, because it's not a surprise, is it? You've seen his name in the episode of the podcast title, is a card magic innovator, author of the seminal book, The Paper Engine, and creator of some of the most influential card techniques of the modern era. The book is about to be reprinted after over 20 years.
And Aaron is our lecturer for this month's masterclass. There's a lot to get through. Let's dive in. Aaron, thanks for agreeing to do this. How are you today?
Aaron Fisher (00:31.591)
I'm so good. I mean, I was just doing a little research this morning. So the last, last edition of your podcast that was up for me to see what it was all about was you and Derren Brown. So I said, this isn't helping me at all. This is a,
Damian (00:38.926)
Mm-hmm.
Damian (00:42.734)
I will treat you with the same reverence Mr. Fisher. What's your magic origin story? You have 24 seconds.
Aaron Fisher (00:53.317)
my goodness gracious. I was born on Krypton. No, the actual origin story, there are two parts. First one was a meta math teacher who did a trick for me. It had a move in it. I think now in retrospect, it was the double lift. It was done with index cards and I'd learned a trick with the glide at camp a year or two before and that was my one trick.
Damian (01:02.286)
Mm-hmm.
Damian (01:09.644)
Yeah.
Aaron Fisher (01:19.941)
So it's kind of like when you eat an egg roll and then your parents take you for dim sum and you discover that the egg roll is just a member of a wide family of delicious dumplings. So when I saw that second dumpling, went, oh, these are, they're in a group. these card tricks have something going on that the other ones didn't have. So I was thrilled. The real origin story, I was practicing two, three hours a day. was in high school. It was the first time I'd ever had like,
Damian (01:28.65)
you
Damian (01:40.994)
Right.
Aaron Fisher (01:49.605)
one of my fads that was like really happening. Like I was practicing, you know, uh, two, three hours a day, a lot. But then my grandparents, they belonged to this beach club in Florida. And so it was like six months later, the only professional magicians I'd ever seen were like, uh, clowns. And, uh, my grandparents said, we have a magician performing magic at the beach club every week. You've got to come see him. Bill Malone. He's great.
Damian (01:53.058)
Mm-hmm.
Aaron Fisher (02:16.653)
And I saw a picture of this goofy guy with this goofy hair. And I thought, my goodness, that's another clown. And I was like, I'm a card guy. And he was like, are you a magician? And I'm like, yeah, I got this royal road, I do card stuff. goes, you should show me some magic. But first, let me do a few things for you. And he only did 20 minutes. But that was an origin story because I went home. I mean, here's the truth. I began to shake.
Damian (02:16.686)
Damian (02:35.894)
me mess with your mind.
Damian (02:40.941)
Wow.
Aaron Fisher (02:46.189)
Like I stopped performing magic for anyone. You know, you first get in magic. You're what you guys call a punter, right? You're just, you know, you're just a magic guy. You're happy. But then there's like, you're kicked from the garden of Eden. When you sit, sat across the table from Malone and I saw these things that, in Royal road were just intimidating. And I didn't even know what they were, but I had a feeling I was in the presence, you know? So it was time to bend the knee. So the cards are falling out of his mouth and.
Damian (02:46.542)
huh.
Damian (02:55.256)
Cool, of course.
Damian (03:11.341)
Yeah.
Aaron Fisher (03:16.153)
He's hitting me as hard as he can. And it was messing me up because like as it was happening, I'm like, we making new plans for like college after high school. I'm like my postgraduate that's out the window. I'm like becoming like an obsessive, you know? So when I went home, I really realized that like two, three hours a day wasn't gonna cut it.
So that was the good thing, is I started practicing all day every day. My grains went downhill, all this stuff. Ended up missing college SATs, all this kind of stuff, missing opportunities as I'm doubling down on magic. But the other thing that happened, and this is, I think, the origin story of Contra Community 2, is I became terrified to perform magic. So I was in this place.
Damian (03:47.34)
Right.
Damian (03:55.757)
Sure.
Aaron Fisher (04:11.299)
which happens to a lot of people who like sleight of hand. It's a very long incubation period. You've probably had a lot of friends that you've known in magic a long time. You can see them. They could be in magic 15 years pushing 30 and still not performing because it takes a long time to incubate that kind of stuff. And I meet a lot of people who are dug in, but
Damian (04:17.774)
Mm.
Damian (04:34.498)
sure.
Aaron Fisher (04:40.865)
in terms of how slow it's going and how frustrating and hopeless it can feel when you're practicing and you just don't, you you're not making progress as quickly in such a way that feels really productive. A lot of people I meet at that point, they say, I don't know if I'll ever want to perform. I don't want to perform. And it's not that I have a belief deep down that every magician would love to do magic. If it were that simple.
Damian (04:50.446)
Mm.
Damian (05:08.206)
Kind of the point, isn't it? Yeah.
Aaron Fisher (05:10.309)
Well, it's kind of the point if you feel like it's possible but for a lot of guys out there who can't I Don't know how old you were when in the old days you had to have someone adopt you if you didn't say someone say kid get in the car
Damian (05:14.813)
Bye.
Damian (05:22.606)
Yeah, uncle adopted me, so yeah.
Aaron Fisher (05:27.109)
It's in, oh, Damien Jennings. Was it Larry? Because he's right here. Is that your?
Damian (05:31.15)
It was a was a gentleman called Dominic twos
Aaron Fisher (05:36.901)
I've heard of him.
Damian (05:39.51)
Yeah, he had a book out through international called impromptu card magic, impromptu card secrets that was very well received. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He got me Royal Road, no relation to that Jennings, no. But yeah, he got me Royal Road when I was 11. So it's all his fault. That is how it was. And now we've got the internet and forums and help and...
Aaron Fisher (05:46.309)
Good title. Yeah. So no relation to the other.
Mm-hmm. And that's how it was.
Aaron Fisher (06:09.827)
And I think for your average guy or gal, it's, if anything, harder.
Damian (06:10.318)
It's different.
Damian (06:16.31)
Okay, why?
Aaron Fisher (06:20.117)
Um, you know, in the community, I meet a lot of it's weird. I never imagined I was going to be working with beginners or people who were just starting out. You know, you put up a shingle as we say, I, was 2010. started teaching magic cause I really enjoyed it. And I thought it was all going to be half passes and paper engine son of paper engine, uh, teaching. But what I found very quickly was there's plenty of guys out there who love magic.
Damian (06:29.55)
Mm.
Aaron Fisher (06:48.239)
good people, smart people, families, jobs, businesses, lives, right? And without the philosopher's stone, it's another Anglo term, isn't it? We say sorcerer is here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm not gonna do that here. But the point is, I meet a lot of people that loitered for years in magic shops, bought all the books, had a career.
Damian (07:03.456)
Speak American, it's okay.
Damian (07:17.102)
Mm-hmm.
Aaron Fisher (07:18.213)
But they never got lucky. They never got that day where they met some guys that get in the car kid. They didn't loiter enough. Maybe they had more focus. They were doing what they should have been doing as opposed to loitering with intent at the magic shop. know? And when these people find what we do a community, you can see this is what they needed the whole time. So I feel like if you are in that early stage of magic before you know anything about anything,
Damian (07:23.756)
Yeah, yeah.
Damian (07:27.985)
Right.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Aaron Fisher (07:48.333)
You are not even out of the Garden of Eden yet. To you, YouTube appears to have all the answers. Why would you ever pay 10 bucks to learn this when it's all free on the internet? Isn't that so?
Damian (07:55.628)
Mm-hmm.
Damian (08:00.246)
Yeah, or even figure out what the Dewey Decimal System is for magic books in your local library.
Aaron Fisher (08:06.765)
And so I think unless you are, I don't know if this is the right word, smart enough or lucky enough or determined enough or fortunate, a little combination of it all, to figure out some things, I feel like it's easier to get yourself lost in the woods than ever before.
Damian (08:21.869)
Mm.
Damian (08:29.216)
Interesting viewpoint. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree that it's overwhelming. There's too much. You know, when I was, I've forgotten the number now, 729, what's the GEE number for magic?
Aaron Fisher (08:34.371)
And if I were sorry.
Aaron Fisher (08:42.321)
I don't know Dewey.
Damian (08:43.69)
Anyway, the number for Magic in the Library, the shelf was, you know, eight books when I was a kid. Then I got the amateur magician's handbook and Royal Road and you know, and I went through them all and there was eight books. I needed nothing else. I needed nothing else. Yeah, he slapped me when I wanted to buy the latest gimmick. He'd say, you've got everything you need in that book. You've got everything you need in that book.
Aaron Fisher (08:46.725)
Mm-hmm.
Aaron Fisher (08:50.201)
Yeah, yeah, right.
Aaron Fisher (08:55.331)
And if those are two of them, you had great odds, but you had great odds. That was two good ones. Yeah. No, and an uncle, but you had an uncle.
Aaron Fisher (09:08.165)
That's the thing.
Aaron Fisher (09:12.485)
But we're laughing, but that's the mechanism that made it possible for you to not spin in wheels all by yourself forever. You call it a smack, it doesn't have to be a smack. But here's my question. If you had a child you loved, would you tell that child to learn piano from YouTube? Say good luck.
Damian (09:12.568)
Talking of books. Yeah.
Damian (09:20.728)
Yeah.
Damian (09:27.267)
Mm.
Damian (09:31.822)
No, I pay £18 for a 30 minute lesson for my child that I love to have learn piano.
Aaron Fisher (09:39.759)
So if you know that much, you should be able to find your interest in magic paying off these days. But it's that little leap. You wanted to say something about a book.
Damian (09:46.936)
Yeah.
Damian (09:50.574)
Yeah, yeah, because you wrote one and it's being republished. Yeah. Now, I was reviewing this and I was reading through a Genie forum thread from 2002. Yeah, I do my research, Fisher. And people, and I think it was Pete Biro, was talking about, it seemed similar to him, and I've got it there somewhere, the Paul the Paul's classic texts.
Aaron Fisher (09:54.167)
I did. I did.
Aaron Fisher (10:05.541)
Yeah.
Aaron Fisher (10:19.063)
It was inspired visually by that. Visually.
Damian (10:19.158)
intentional was how intentional okay well that was my the follow-up was how intentional was was that
Aaron Fisher (10:26.179)
visually? It's a great question. I've loved the LePaul book growing up. I felt like it was one of those first books that really made sense of technique with photos for me. It helped, you know. And one of the, you know, the two columns was great. The big photos was great. And there's another thing, if you go through that book, it's got interesting things. It's got photos with drawings in them.
Damian (10:39.874)
Mm-hmm.
Aaron Fisher (10:54.947)
which is interesting because you get the arrows plus photos. And it also, as I recall, has like some from your point of view and then the same move, the same pass from the other point of view from the front and the back. And so when you go through it, it's got this beautiful, beautiful approach to teaching sleight of hand. It also has technique in the first half and effects in the second half. if
Damian (10:56.366)
Mm-hmm.
Damian (11:07.192)
Right.
Aaron Fisher (11:23.329)
you know, let the book reflect the nature of what the intended gift is of the book, you know? So for me, that was a good format because what I was offering were interesting techniques and hopefully insightful discussions about why they were interesting to look at. Yeah.
Damian (11:48.354)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, Pete Biro or whoever it was that mentioned it on the Genie Forum was clearly correct then. In the book, you described it as a guide to softening card magic, which is a phrase I particularly like. How do concepts like eliminating tension and prioritizing audience focus translate into...
Aaron Fisher (11:56.163)
He wasn't wrong.
Damian (12:16.386)
Joe doing tricks for his mate in the bar.
Aaron Fisher (12:19.555)
Hmm. Well, I'm you know, they you know, it's that thing they say in politics and I'm not in politics, but they say you answer the question that you know, you you you imagine. Yeah, but it's the same. think here's the thing. Sometimes it's a little bit circuitous, but we'll get there. We'll take a turn around the block. Yeah, it's totally fine. Well.
Damian (12:28.684)
You wish I'd asked you.
Damian (12:41.326)
I'm gonna come back to it if you do. I've got all night. It's your birthday, you're the one waiting to go out.
Aaron Fisher (12:47.447)
It's an interesting thing, you know. There's not really any good excuse for doing beautiful magic for anyone else. Like, we're not going to have an article, an argument that says, you do something aesthetically beautiful because that's what audiences always care about the most. That's not really why we do something right. We do it right because it makes us happy. And so I.
Damian (13:11.68)
Yeah. Sure. Sure.
Aaron Fisher (13:16.131)
You know, ever since I've been a kid. Interested in what I was interested in. was hearing from the guys around the counter that, why do you need that crap for kid? I just entertain them. And I'm like, but do you really, but do you really? Well, it's the same thing, Derren Brown. I only got to listen to the beginning of it because I was going to get fascinated and sucked in, but it was your first question. And he was talking about the idea that presentation is all there is like this idea that if you have no method, when people don't have
Damian (13:26.22)
Right. Here's a three and a half of clubs.
Aaron Fisher (13:45.773)
integrated elements of their magic, they tend to miss weight, some of them. So like, like presentation is not a method, you know, or an effect. So but I guess you didn't ask me that. So I think here's what I would say. One of the things that happens in magic is we see people who do things beautifully and we say that's nacky.
Damian (13:50.794)
Mm-hmm. I'll say.
Aaron Fisher (14:11.501)
Nacky is the pet peeve, right? Because that means you don't know how to explain it and you're not sure how it works. Okay. but I blame you for that. And I'll say, you'll just work with it or it's your fault. You won't get it. or you'll say a person's talented or they just with sleight of hand, they have this beautiful touch, but that's once it gels, that's how it feels to be, in the presence of something like that. And that's the best actual.
Damian (14:15.714)
Mm-hmm.
Damian (14:20.654)
Sure.
Mm-hmm.
Damian (14:29.943)
Yeah.
Aaron Fisher (14:40.843)
justification and reason for getting yourself to a place like that is because it transcends a description. People feel something when they watch it that has value. They, see certain artists do stuff and it takes your breath away and there's something beautiful about it. and if I have to articulate what that is, you're always going to find various audiences with different sensitivities to stuff like that. So you're always going to be able to find a good argument for not doing it.
Damian (15:05.293)
course.
Aaron Fisher (15:09.797)
And the only good argument for doing it is that it speaks to you. And I also think, you know, our reasons for doing things mature as we go. But by that point, you have other tools than you would have had before. as I'm 49 today, as we discussed, I'm not going to sit down today and start working on things that are going to take 20 years to even be able to do correctly.
Damian (15:15.768)
Yeah.
Aaron Fisher (15:40.005)
That's not a good use of my time. And I don't know if I would have done the same thing if I had it to do over again. But I do know that part of the passion for teaching this stuff is that it's so mysterious. But there's a lot of people that can make a heck of a lot more progress, have a lot more fun, have a more rewarding experience, more fun with our
Damian (15:42.509)
Yeah.
Damian (15:46.19)
Mmm.
Aaron Fisher (16:09.145)
You look like a family man, right?
Damian (16:10.892)
Like yeah, I have two kids.
Aaron Fisher (16:12.579)
Right. So you've got your magic time. It's not as much as it used to be. And you sure. Right. And so this is what we see a lot. Those folks can use someone in their corner. They can use help and they can use a little bit of guidance. You got the smacks. They don't need smacks. You can just nudge and point, but you can, you know, you can actually get it done. You can have a very rewarding experience. You can make a lot of progress and you can actually.
Damian (16:14.702)
Mm-hmm. Far from it. I've got a 10 year old and a four year old. It's very far from it.
Aaron Fisher (16:42.393)
get a lot further than you ever would have had the balls or let's the even presume to have a goal, you know, when I meet a lot of people, they're they are, don't ever really want to perform. And it's not that they just aren't really don't know if that's a reasonable goal at this point. seems so notional.
Damian (16:49.506)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Damian (17:01.748)
Yeah, how interesting. guess because I was always a show off. I did drama before I picked up magic and I was always on stage. And so for me doing a trick was natural because it's like, Damien be the center of attention. Okay. But I guess you're right that there's a whole bunch of people that aren't me.
Aaron Fisher (17:02.937)
You know it seems like well.
Aaron Fisher (17:09.029)
Mm-hmm.
Aaron Fisher (17:12.773)
Mm-hmm.
Aaron Fisher (17:22.405)
We, there's a class that it was kind of the flagship class that we still teach it every year or two for conjure community. It's called three M. Uh, and it's about integrating different elements of your magic. And one of the points that we get at in the, there's a free course that we run at the beginning of it. That's, know, you know how that works, but, but it's meant to be very helpful to people regardless if they want to do the course or not. And.
Damian (17:35.886)
Mm-hmm.
Aaron Fisher (17:49.719)
And one of the things we start with is that most people that we meet, and this is a gross over simplification, fall into a few different categories of the engine that's driving their passion. Some of them we call them mechanics, thinkers, and showmen, right? And you were a showman. You had this natural ham inside you. I was a mechanic, you know, and here's the thing about me. I was a bit of a ham and an extrovert and a theater student.
Damian (18:11.261)
Yeah.
Aaron Fisher (18:18.767)
But because of that Malone thing, that showman got sat down and never got up again for 15 years. And so, yeah. And so I guess the point, and so we say those are the mechanics. They like the practice, they feel good about it, they enjoy it. It's a passion. And then the thinker, they're the explorers. And the idea being is that no matter which of those groups you're in,
Damian (18:20.846)
Mm-hmm.
Damian (18:27.232)
Yeah, because you got schooled.
Aaron Fisher (18:48.471)
It's a good thing to know because it's your, that's your secret power to use your super hero. That's your superpower, but it's also your kryptonite and your ultimate path is going to involve learning to let that passion drive, drive the engine, so to speak, while finding ways to integrate all the other elements that go into making the complete magician, you know? So.
Damian (18:57.826)
Yeah.
Damian (19:17.218)
Yeah.
Aaron Fisher (19:18.007)
So the point is, if you're a show person, that's great. You know, but there's a tendency that the low hanging fruit for a show person is going to have something to do with learning about methods and effects and even to some small extent technique. So to get back to your question, what the paper engine focuses on is the connection between technique and attention management, really.
Damian (19:30.082)
Mm-hmm.
Aaron Fisher (19:46.617)
The idea being that there's the way a slight is constructed. And this is something you never get until you've been in long enough to have perspective. And this is why so many of us have to learn things over and over again, throw away old tools when we find one we like better. So as our magic awareness expands and we begin to integrate attention management and structure and presentation and performance and all these different things.
Damian (19:57.518)
Mm-hmm.
Aaron Fisher (20:15.529)
We often find that just the technique, is where we start Royal Road, as you said, right? We pick up what's in front of us and we go. We often find that these techniques read well in a vacuum, but when it has to be covered in transit, while you're looking this way and drawing the audience's attention to an effect, often a slight that looks great when you're looking at it in a demo in the mirror.
Damian (20:34.382)
No.
Damian (20:41.539)
Mm-hmm.
Aaron Fisher (20:44.687)
has a tendency to draw people to it in performance. And there's a lot of conflicting information. When people learn a retention pass, a Roth-style retention pass, or all the modern ones people are doing now, well, they have a tendency to think, looks so incredible, that's what I want to do.
And they rarely have enough perspective for many years to go, hey, wait a minute. That was shown to be by a magician. Well, in a demo. And how much that has to be reformatted and reconfigured in order to be done in transit. When aligned with the tension management and structure, so it's a whole in context, these things work differently. I'm sure I'm just battling one and on, but.
Damian (21:34.574)
Yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no, no, you answered it perfectly. And so I don't need to re ask it. What I'd like to know. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we're not obviously all full time performers. But if we can strive to make the performances that we do better, then that's a good thing. Now, the paper engine was first published in 2002. Are there are there techniques?
Aaron Fisher (21:42.063)
But did that answer your question about the guy at the bar? Okay, yeah, all right.
Aaron Fisher (21:59.653)
Block 2.
Damian (22:03.798)
or routines that you've reconsidered or refined since then? And bonus follow-up question, is there any new material in this edition?
Aaron Fisher (22:14.401)
It's really interesting, you know, when you go, let me just try and answer the important question briefly. There's stuff in the masterclass, which is routine or two in the masterclass that I'm really happy about that took many, many years since the paper engine. There's a great trick in the paper engine called Fisher's favorite inversion. It's a beautiful little two phase routine where you do one move, but you get two effects and.
The card turns face up, then the deck turns face up. And it's just a simple, beautiful construction. And it's got that combination of clarity and directness and stress-free performance that allowed me to open many performances with it over the year. You know, just get that visual pop while not having to ever think about it, just like your favorite trick that you love because it's always there for you and doesn't make demands on you. Right. So it's one of those.
Damian (23:07.608)
Sure Sure
Aaron Fisher (23:11.357)
But for years, you know, we talk about threes and full routines, but there's a lot of ways to get there without having a three phase trick. For example, I used to do Revolution Number Nine, which is another face down face up reverse card routine in that book. I would do it after that trick and it felt like a three phase routine. But for years, I wanted to make that three phases. But every time I did it, it would end up more like three slights and three effects.
Damian (23:41.292)
Okay, okay.
Aaron Fisher (23:42.317)
So it's, know, is that an improvement? Well, it certainly wasn't the jigsaw puzzle I was working on. I wanted to maintain a more effect than effort ratio. I really love what we are sharing in the master class. To me, that's a really special handling of that. It's good, you know?
Damian (23:45.442)
You
Damian (24:03.724)
Yeah, yeah, In the first masterclass, which broadcast yesterday as we record, this will come out tomorrow on Tuesday, was, don't be nervous, you did well, was a deep dive into the gravity half-path. Now let's talk about the move. How did you come up with it? And if I may, why did you think, and I really don't mean this to be rude, and I'm British, so I can come across as charming, okay?
Aaron Fisher (24:10.307)
No! I'm so nervous.
Okay, I feel better. Yeah.
Aaron Fisher (24:31.405)
It's just one of these British things, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Damian (24:32.46)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If I was from the Bronx, you would punch me. But but as it is, I think I can ask this politely. Why did you choose to use that for essentially the whole of the first lecture?
Aaron Fisher (24:38.943)
Ehh... shite.
Aaron Fisher (24:45.573)
well, it's interesting, you know, for about 14 years, my partner, Adam Grace, and I have been building with a lot of help from our friends, the CC club. And, you know, in a way, I haven't been as engaged with the wider magic fraternity for the last 10 years as I used to be when I was lecturing all around and everything. And
most of the time we spend helping people with their magic. Whereas the paper engine is a little more from that perspective of it being like my material, the stuff that I've created and so on. And so that was good because it's really how I made an impression in the first place, built my brand and all that stuff. It's lovely. But most of the time, I'm spending my time
working on people's magic with them and things that are directly relevant to their lives. So the paper engine is sort of more like, hey, here's the magic I've created or my contribution to that. So it seemed to me, since this was the rare opportunity to do a project with Vanishing, that in that mode, that was probably the place for that kind of thing. And since the paper engine's coming back out,
Damian (26:08.632)
Bye.
Aaron Fisher (26:11.469)
It seemed to me like a resource that makes that practical for people. was my best opportunity to talk to more experienced magicians and get that really useful practical technique into people's hands.
Damian (26:15.447)
Mm-hmm.
Damian (26:25.826)
And what can people look forward to next Sunday in week two? A lot of unpublished material I've heard talk about, I've not seen it yet.
Aaron Fisher (26:34.625)
You know, my first teacher in magic was Jack Burnman. He was an underground card expert in Washington, DC area. And can find things like if you look at John Bannon's first hardcover book, impossibilio, you'll find two or three Jack Burnman tricks in there. Look in the old best of friends. If you look in the Looking Glass magazines, you can find these Jack Burnman techniques sprinkled around as a secret, you know. And I've had
Damian (26:40.206)
Mmm
Damian (26:54.946)
Mm-hmm.
Aaron Fisher (27:04.749)
I think now, you know, it's possible. think Richard Kaufman's putting some of that stuff into greater magic now. But I've had this material really pretty well exclusive to myself for a long time. Jack passed away a while ago now. And, you know, his notes are in Richard's hands. We all have hopes that that'll reach the world in any kind of useful way. But I've been working with that material a long, long time.
I have a lot of refinements in the kinds of things you get when you get to grow 30 years doing some of these tricks. And it just seemed like a great opportunity to share some of the magic that I love the most, you know? After all, it's not all about me. That's how I was feeling.
Damian (27:41.422)
Sure.
Damian (27:49.454)
No.
Aaron Fisher (27:50.915)
Well, the goal is to reach people I don't get to normally reach and hopefully share something that will be worth a damn with them. Yeah. And you know, I have to tell you, Damien, we've all been around a lot longer than we maybe ever thought about being, but the older I get, the more amazed I am by how talented everyone is. I think there's so many talented people that if you're going to show up and ask for anyone's attention at all,
Damian (27:55.171)
Yeah.
Damian (27:58.658)
With Sherrick. Absolutely.
Aaron Fisher (28:18.595)
It's something they taught us in theater school. If you're going to do a play, takes a lot of energy from people and you ought to make sure you write a play worth performing. so I wanted to share the best material I could for something durable like this.
Damian (28:26.506)
Absolutely, absolutely.
Damian (28:33.536)
So what
Some people may associate your creations as kind of a little bit tricky. level of card magician, well, like maybe a bit harder than an Elmsley Count. It's very difficult, isn't it? There's not a grading, there's not an official grading scale for beginner, advanced beginner, low intimate. There's not a grade school. So if we were to say,
Aaron Fisher (28:48.709)
What do mean by that, by the way?
Aaron Fisher (29:07.833)
You mean it's challenging stuff? You mean it's challenging, challenging.
Damian (29:07.896)
harder than an Elms. But no, it's not it's not that. It's like, it's not edge grips with coins or a DPS. And it's a bit more than an Elmsley count, possibly some of it. So what level would you pitch the masterclass out if some of us listening to this now, and they're younger, and they've never heard of the blooming paper engine. Imagine that Aaron, there are people that have never heard of it.
Aaron Fisher (29:24.687)
Mm-hmm.
Damian (29:36.066)
And they're thinking, who's this Aaron Fisher dude? And am I right for this masterclass? Who's it for?
Aaron Fisher (29:36.291)
I know it's exciting, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Aaron Fisher (29:44.357)
Well, I'm glad you asked. And this sort of applies to the paper engine, the new edition. And this gets to the question that I evaded earlier. It was a good question. When I went and looked at the idea of possibly updating the paper engine, I got very lucky. I got very lucky that through some fortunate series of events, I was like 21. And somehow when I go back and look at that book,
I'm not embarrassed.
Damian (30:17.474)
don't think Joshua Jay can say the same thing about Magic Atlas.
Aaron Fisher (30:20.508)
Well, well, I'm not that's that's a horse of a different color. I guess my point is I consider that to be more luck than skill. And because I think the natural expectation would be if you look at an old high school picture yourself, you wince and the book is like an extended version of that. Right. But one of the things that makes it so is that it knows its lane.
Damian (30:29.195)
Okay, okay.
Damian (30:35.239)
huh. Yeah.
yeah.
Damian (30:49.175)
Mm-hmm.
Aaron Fisher (30:49.431)
It's speaking in a very narrow range of things. It's talking about the intersection of technique, intention and focus. And at the time it was giving the very best examples. It was giving my. Call it value added original. It's a tricky word, original and magic, but these these contributions were examples of this lesson and I had that. Clarity.
Damian (30:56.939)
Mm-hmm.
Damian (31:16.654)
Mm-hmm.
Aaron Fisher (31:17.445)
to restrain things because when you got a blank page, I didn't go to school for writing like Josh, but when you have a blank page, it's almost too much freedom. It's better to have things as constrained as they can be because then you know what to not do.
Damian (31:32.301)
Mm-hmm.
Same as creating a show, the more constraints, the more creative you can be. Yeah.
Aaron Fisher (31:39.813)
And the better you can follow some kind of stay on the rails, so to speak, as my friend Alex would say. So at that time, I was 22. And there's moments when I can perceive that now that I'm older, I might not use always the same big words. might, you know, I can smell that stuff, but it didn't. It didn't get to a place where I'm like, I can't, you know, like I'm.
Damian (31:45.175)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Damian (32:06.648)
There was no me too stuff in there.
Aaron Fisher (32:09.869)
I just don't I feel like I got I dodged a bullet there and a pretty hard bullet to dodge. OK. The stuff I've done with pronouns being wrong was much more recent. So now here's the thing. So when I went to look at updating it, I said it's a bad idea. To try and really alter this book. It works, and if I was going to do something now,
And when I do things now, it's in my voice now and it's dealing with the things I'm interested in now. So what we decided to do was devote a whole new chapter in the book to the fundamentals of what I call the natural dealing position, which is where I find most folks that I meet couldn't really use the most correction at the very beginning.
Damian (32:45.23)
Mm.
Aaron Fisher (33:07.031)
And so what we really focus on there is how to make sure you're holding the cards with no pressure anywhere and how you can really test that. And then there's an in-depth discussion of how you do that without getting busted, how you practice it. Now, in a sense, it's very easy. It's not even a move. It's such a simple thing that most folks don't even think about it. But when I meet them, they're holding the cards like this.
Damian (33:13.72)
Mm-hmm.
Aaron Fisher (33:36.547)
They don't realize that their fingers are up here. So if they went to hold a break, they'd have a finger vanishing. you know, there's all kinds of things. Thumbs out here. There's all kinds of stuff going on. And of course, when you go to spread the cards, you can't spread them. You can't get those over your fingers. got all kinds of problems. So in the book, I added a robust chapter on how to practice and understand and think about dealing position because there's a direct.
Damian (33:41.166)
Mm-hmm.
Damian (33:52.717)
Mm-hmm.
Aaron Fisher (34:06.319)
There's a direct follow through to how you do an invisible path path and a lot of other things that come from knowing how to hold the cards. Bobby Fisher wrote a book called Bobby Fisher teaches chess, and it was all about how to checkmate people. And it's filled with exercises where there's three pieces on the board and it's a workbook for kids. And it's a beautiful book. And so that was what we decided to do in the paper engine. And then to make it.
Damian (34:11.917)
Right.
Of course, it's a foundation.
Aaron Fisher (34:36.893)
Very helpful to people who really need the fundamental lessons there to give people a taste of what we're doing now. And also like my feeling is, is that alone should be a highly helpful, insightful experience for people who are just starting out. And in the masterclass, I believe there's not only a lot of really practical visual effective material in there, but I'm hoping
Damian (34:51.97)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Aaron Fisher (35:03.831)
and set up everything I do so that if anyone watches that master class, they should be able to have a few discoveries in there that are that light a light bulb for them in such a way that things change, that they begin to have a better experience with a lot of this stuff, no matter how hard the stuff they're looking for needs to be at this point. I think I'm glad you mentioned it, because one of the things that
anyone who works with us these days would notice is that we, you know, you read the paper engine, you would think I'm like a 22 year old guy who's interested in doing magic with passes. You know, and the interesting thing about it is once you can do that stuff, you don't have to worry about that stuff. So we're interested in practical things, we're interested in helping people move forward. And, and sometimes that involves the gravity half pass, but for most of our students, Contra community,
Damian (35:50.275)
Yeah.
Damian (36:01.378)
It doesn't.
Aaron Fisher (36:02.565)
You know, it's there when they need it, we're hoping to help them get on the right track and feel good about this stuff before they get infused into that kind of crap, you know?
Damian (36:05.198)
Of course.
Damian (36:12.173)
Yeah.
Now, talking of lessons and learning important things, from my understanding, you had a lesson or two from a aforementioned Mr. Larry Jennings behind you and that there Mr. Johnny Thompson. Now, are there any pivotal lessons from those masters that have particularly shaped or impacted your teaching ethos today?
Aaron Fisher (36:28.942)
old buddies.
Aaron Fisher (36:44.633)
Yeah, you know, I think when I grew up, there was a lot of hazing in magic and I would meet some of the older guys that you really need to connect with. And for whatever reason, this is kind of the downside of the old days. You could learn from the masters, but there's a lot of people that have bad experiences learning from the masters.
Damian (36:59.31)
Mm-hmm.
Aaron Fisher (37:13.367)
And then there's guys that you meet that show you through example that it doesn't have to be that way. Some people may be confused when they're growing up and thinking, you know, the more talented the magician, the meaner or nastier they are. You ever, you ever hear people who've got that general idea?
Damian (37:21.475)
Right.
Damian (37:32.302)
Vernon hitting your knuckles with his wand.
Aaron Fisher (37:39.749)
All kinds of variations, you know, at least Vernon was an expert, you know. So I think the most important thing I learned from those guys and others is that when a person is young or just starting out, doesn't matter how young they are, a kind word goes a long way.
Damian (37:44.792)
Sure, fair enough.
Damian (38:05.347)
Right.
Aaron Fisher (38:06.807)
And so that's, you know, when I met Juan Tamariz, I was terrified. And I was supposed to demo some trick form from the paper engine with the gravity half path. And it's terrifying. When, and when I said, Juan, pick a card and Juan picked the card and he was just a human being. Did what you do for any kid who's freaking out, trying to show you a trick and doesn't need to be suffering. He was kind.
So I think the most important thing I learned about from those guys is just kindness.
Damian (38:44.376)
think that's a lesson right now that humanity could learn from Aaron.
Aaron Fisher (38:50.039)
It certainly makes magic a lot more fun. Yeah.
Damian (38:52.576)
Yeah, Penultimately. If the paper engine and or this excellent masterclass could leave people with one enduring principle, what would it be?
Aaron Fisher (39:12.909)
I think this is something that, know, whatever the question is, whatever we're focused on right now in teaching is kind of the answer, right? So if you asked me this two years ago, I'd say whatever I was working on right now. But what it's about right now is, you know, we're just starting a new training program.
and CC Max. And what the main point of it is, and it's the same thing in that material we were talking about in the paper engine and the master class. that's that there was really rich rewards that come from exploring rather than mastering. So when we sit and we practice and we're trying to get it down,
Damian (39:59.758)
Mm.
Aaron Fisher (40:07.745)
We really are missing a lot of what makes it fun, what makes it work, what makes it awesome. And so I think what we're trying to help people discover is that if we slow down and find out what's fun about spending a few minutes with your cards or your coins, you can maintain an attitude of curiosity that
that allows you to discover things and it really makes things come along a lot faster. Right? And so if we can just hold a little space for people so that they can take the time to just examine and be curious about what's happening, there's just so much that can come out. you know, I mean, I...
Damian (40:42.03)
Mmm.
Aaron Fisher (41:05.561)
I think people don't know how to practice. think people who are good at magic figure out how to practice. They learn how to practice in a way that feels good, that gets results, and it's all about having a relationship with yourself. And I think that that's a very rewarding relationship. Yeah.
Damian (41:13.07)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Damian (41:21.548)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it being fun, when practicing isn't fun, who's going to want to do it, you know?
Aaron Fisher (41:29.509)
And part of that is feeling like it's a success. Part of that is enjoying yourself, you know? And a lot of times, a lot of times, you know, in the old days, we used to hang out with Johnny or Larry and they would do stuff like, all right, you hold it like that. Do you see? And you don't see. I'm gonna show you one more time. Got it.
Damian (41:33.752)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Aaron Fisher (41:56.685)
And it was all fun and games and everything, but until you've learned how to see those details, that's what the game is learning how to see details that you're not even aware of, you know?
Damian (42:04.035)
Yeah.
Damian (42:11.981)
Yeah, you don't know what you don't know.
Aaron Fisher (42:15.361)
No, and it's a that's kind of what we're there to do. And we do it by having fun with each other, being supportive with each other and giving people opportunities to feel safe and learn and and not making it an ego thing. You know.
Damian (42:20.558)
Sure.
Damian (42:27.98)
Yeah, yeah.
Damian (42:33.902)
Sure. Aaron Fisher, we are out of time. We always end the show with four quick fire questions. Are you ready? Favorite pizza topping.
Aaron Fisher (42:41.975)
No! Okay, yes!
mushrooms.
Damian (42:47.586)
favorite movie.
Aaron Fisher (42:54.795)
It really favorite movie. Okay.
Damian (42:56.226)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Aaron Fisher (43:01.413)
I'm gonna go with the Fellowship of the Ring.
Damian (43:07.128)
favorite person or people who make music.
Aaron Fisher (43:13.852)
Uh, I'm going to say widespread panic.
Damian (43:18.038)
See, I like it when that happens. Never heard of them. I'm gonna go look it up. And finally, who would you rather fight? One massive Andi or a hundred tiny Joshuas?
Aaron Fisher (43:20.431)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Aaron Fisher (43:33.573)
I would have to say.
If I have to pick one, I would say one big Andi. One big Andi. That's a good question. That was a good question.
Damian (43:40.758)
Yeah, you do. Okay. He's gonna be waiting for you. Aaron Fisher, thank you so much for giving us your time. Very, very, very happy birthday. And I enjoy, I look forward, I enjoyed yesterday's masterclass. I look forward to next week's masterclass and the reprint of the paper engine coming very soon. Aaron Fisher, thank you so much for your time.
Aaron Fisher (44:06.287)
Thank you, my friend.
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