The Insider | Ben Seidman
By Damian Jennings - Tuesday, March 18, 2025
Summary
In this episode, Damian interviews magician Ben Seidman, discussing his journey in magic, the creative process behind consulting for films, and the emotional impact of his routines. They explore the cultural adaptations required for performances in different regions, the decision to share magic secrets, and the importance of accessibility in magic. Ben also shares insights from his experiences performing for Penn and Teller and his excitement for creating new theatrical shows. Ben discusses his collaborative journey in creating a new magic show, the challenges and frustrations he faces in modern magic, and the philosophy behind his performances. He shares insights into his upcoming shows, the importance of quality over quantity in magic, and the innovative techniques he employs, including dual reality. Seidman also introduces his new book, which focuses on a single trick, emphasizing the simplicity and impact of his approach to magic. Throughout the discussion, he highlights the importance of audience engagement and the joy of sharing magic with others.
Buy tickets for Ben's show at the Rhapsody Theater here.
Get Ben's new book here.
Buy The Oracle System here.
Audio Version
Video Version
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Ben Seidman
03:03 The Creative Process in Magic Consulting
05:56 Cultural Adaptation in Performance
08:58 The Emotional Impact of the Oracle System
12:09 The Decision to Share Magic Secrets
14:47 Creating Accessible Magic for All
18:00 Performing for Penn and Teller
21:06 Excitement and Frustration in Modern Magic
24:51 The Collaborative Journey of Magic Creation
26:02 Upcoming Shows and Ambitious Plans
27:41 Frustrations in Modern Magic
29:44 The Art of a Single Trick
31:10 Creating a High-Impact Routine
33:52 Understanding Dual Reality in Magic
39:38 Target Audience and Skill Level for Performers
41:40 Philosophical Insights on Magic Performance
AI Transcript
Damian (00:00.834)
Hello and welcome to today's episode of the insider brought to you as ever by Famishing Inc. My guest today was my fifth guest ever on this podcast and I looked it up and it was November 2018. The world was a very different place. I'm trying to get into AI LLM stuff. So I asked perplexity to write an introduction for you Ben. You ready? This is perplexities introduction for you.
Welcome to The Insider, where today we're joined by Ben Seidman, the only magician ever named resident magician at the Mandalay Bay Resort and Casino in Las Vegas. Ben has consulted for Chris Angel's Mind Freak, taught Johnny Knoxville magic for Jackass franchise, and performed for celebrities from Christina Aguilera to Robin Williams. He's appeared twice on Penn and Teller's Foolness and today we'll discuss his new book.
principles of destruction, which promises to reveal what many are calling a genuine miracle level routine. Please welcome Ben Seidman, a true innovator in modern magic.
Ben Seidman (01:03.608)
Thanks Damien, it's great to be here. It's nice to hear your sweet baritone yet again.
Damian (01:08.962)
So good to see you, how are you man?
Ben Seidman (01:10.88)
I'm great. I'm amazing. It's so good to see. This is the first time I've actually seen you on video. We did only audio only last time. I didn't even really know your race or gender until now. This is exciting.
Damian (01:16.29)
We were back then, 2018, was only audio.
Damian (01:22.754)
I'm glad that all that can be cleared up for you. Now you did mention a little extra credit that wasn't in there. Where have you been recently on a movie location?
Ben Seidman (01:36.294)
the you're talking about the consulting gig, I assume. Yeah. Rumor has gotten out. I don't think this is officially announced, but I'm legally allowed to talk about it. I believe we'll find out. but I was a, I was a, a magic consultant for the new, you see me movie. Now you see me three. I don't even know what it's called yet, but the third in the franchise of the global box office sensation that, you know, you know, the highest movies with magic, Jesse Eisenberg, Morgan Freeman, everyone.
Damian (01:39.21)
Yeah.
Damian (02:00.428)
exciting.
huh, I'm aware of the work.
Ben Seidman (02:05.302)
Yes, so I was in Budapest for two months working as a consultant on that, which was a wild experience.
Damian (02:12.524)
So when you're doing this consultancy stuff for Mindfreak or Swedish TV or Master of Illusion or The Mentalist or all the other things you've done, what's the creative process? How does the creative process differ from when you're creating magic for you to perform or us mere mortals when you release your effects?
Ben Seidman (02:34.03)
You're very kind. It is different every single time. mean, my process for myself is much more contained and specific to my own voice. When it comes to consulting on films or TV shows, I mean, it is, it has been, not a single gig has been even close to the same. It's always different, different objectives. We're always working with different budgets, different types of people. Sometimes I'm designing magic for a magician to perform.
And sometimes that magician's very skilled, sometimes they're not. Sometimes, at least in this case, it is actors playing the part of magicians, of course. So, you know, that we forget how difficult magic is. There's so much sleight of hand that is inherent to us because we've been doing this stuff forever. But yeah, when you're teaching an actor who doesn't have the experience moving their hands in these specific ways or controlling attention, it really has to be bulletproof.
Damian (03:20.321)
Sure.
Ben Seidman (03:31.296)
Even the things that seem simple to us become very complex in the hands of someone who haven't executed sleight of hand before.
Damian (03:40.844)
So when I told my wife that you were coming on, mentioned the jackass thing because she's got the hots for Johnny Knoxville. And she's only made of flesh, But I wondered, are you teaching them to do a trick or are you teaching them to make it look like they can do a trick? You know, sometimes when there's a musician,
Ben Seidman (03:51.074)
Get real.
Damian (04:07.628)
playing the piano, an actor playing the piano, they're clearly not playing, but they've been taught to make it look like they're playing. What are you doing generally? Are you teaching them to blag it?
Ben Seidman (04:14.254)
Sure. Well, it's, I mean, it, first of all, in the context of Jackass, Johnny Knoxville happens to love magic and he likes the idea of putting some magic tricks in the movies. None of the stunts they do use magic methods. Those are all legit and real. So that I feel like I have to put out there. Anytime there's an overtly magical moment, like in Bad Grandpa, for example, he wanted to pull flowers out of his pants.
Damian (04:44.087)
Mm-hmm.
Ben Seidman (04:44.14)
which is, you know, this is a purely a comedic character choice, but he was interested in the magic method with it. yeah, again, none of these stunts that they're doing are fake. These are all real and super dangerous. But when he wanted to do, you know, certain pickpocketing moves he was interested in, and in the case of the most recent Jackass film, that he wanted to make Milk disappear into a top hat right before he got hit by a bull.
So this was a very specific thing, obviously, that the bull was all up to them and my god, he's almost killed himself so many times, so I had nothing to do with that. He just, in this case, I was to design the effect. He was like, I need to make milk disappear. How do I do that? And I was like, I can design you a hat. So that, for example, very, very different than the Now You See Me stuff where we were taking magic that was in the script that was also.
developed by the script consultants like Jared Kopp, Randy Pitchford, who put this whole thing together, Toby Hallbrick, James Steinmeier, taking some of that and putting it on its feet and changing it around so that it would actually work in the hands of the actors. And it's hilarious because the consulting thing, this is like 2 % of what I actually do. It's just the credits that sound the most interesting, exciting, because it's like, you got to teach Morgan Freeman a magic trick? Like, that sounds way more exciting.
Damian (05:56.226)
Sure.
Damian (06:09.354)
Let's talk about that.
Ben Seidman (06:09.646)
Yeah, totally. But this is a very small part of what I actually do in magic. I'm creating magic and performing much more often than the consultations.
Damian (06:17.346)
So talking of performing, I was interested in the Macau stuff, having listened to two magicians, one mic, and I don't know whether you listened to that during their whole Macau thing. And it was, it was an experience for them. So my question was, because it was 120 shows, which is record breaking, according to your website. Okay, was too many shows there.
Ben Seidman (06:42.498)
You could say too many. Let's go ahead and say that's too many.
Damian (06:47.148)
But did you have to change for the cultural differences of performing in Macau? Your normal stuff?
Ben Seidman (06:54.712)
Did I have to change when I was performing? Yeah, very, very much. In this case, when did I know this? The week before, I would say. I had about a week. When I first accepted the gig, I thought I was performing for expats and that I was just gonna go and do my normal thing. And then I found out they're like, where are you performing? No one speaks English. And that's kind of a problem for a guy who talks a lot on stage. So yeah, I kind of wrote a...
Damian (07:01.0)
When did you know this? Of like five minutes into the first...
okay.
Ben Seidman (07:24.718)
close up magic silent act that I did as a street show, really. It was, I mean, bizarre. We're talking five, six shows a day, six days a week. I was performing with my friend Marcus Monroe, incredible stand up comedian who in this case was juggling because he can't do stand up to people who can't understand English. But yeah, that was a very, very strange gig. You're going back, by the way. This was like, years ago.
Damian (07:47.394)
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, let's bring it right up to recent tricks. Because I wanted to talk to you about the Oracle system because I've got a problem with it.
Ben Seidman (07:55.458)
Okay.
Damian (08:06.678)
We've released for you the Oracle system and permanent record. And we'll talk about permanent record in a minute. They're very vastly different things. But with the Oracle system, for those that don't know, it's essentially kind of an ESP five card matching routine, but with tarot cards and some very warm reading thrown in. Fair? When it came out, I tried it about three or four times on people and three out of those four times people cried.
It made me feel really weird.
Ben Seidman (08:39.694)
well.
Damian (08:39.968)
And I didn't know, like, cause one of the best bits about that release is the download that comes with it. Cause the talk and the conversations that you have in that about cold reading and the power of it and warm reading in this case. But.
Damian (08:58.722)
Okay, so your reaction was cool, you won. But to me, it felt a bit too much. It's like I don't do readings and psychic-y things. I'm a magician and it felt too powerful.
Ben Seidman (09:04.279)
Well...
Ben Seidman (09:08.831)
Yeah.
I understand. I understand. I feel the same way. And it all comes down to how you perform it. You can perform that in such a way that people are moved to tears and that it's very like that it's a really serious thing, but it doesn't have to be performed in that way. This is just look, the inherent built in feelings that can come from it can be intense. But if you shift it, look, if you, if you do a little paradigm shift here and you approach the performance,
Damian (09:24.47)
Yeah.
Ben Seidman (09:41.524)
more light-hearted and even comment on the fact that it's not real at all, you can approach it from a way that actually feels much more light and even comical if you want to. It's all about the direction. I understand why this happened. For example, you are asking people, as you know, but for the listeners who don't perform the effect, you're asking people to think of someone in their life who has some significance to them.
Damian (09:46.379)
Right.
Damian (09:53.206)
Mm-mm-mm.
Ben Seidman (10:10.722)
and then match that person to one of the tarot cards. You can simply add in, and someone from your life who, know, someone you feel good about or someone, just, you know, make sure it's someone who's still alive and someone you don't wanna murder. You know, you can throw that in. just by saying that, suddenly they're like, okay, I'm gonna choose a lighter relationship. you just say, if you don't say, choose someone in your life who's very important to you.
Damian (10:33.216)
We could play now, yeah.
Ben Seidman (10:39.692)
and you say that with a lot of intensity, like yeah, it could get real for sure. Especially if they knew someone who recently passed away. I'm sorry this happened to you.
Damian (10:43.806)
Yeah, really did. In a weird way, No, no, no, it's not sorry. It's a good thing. All the people that had it happen to them really enjoyed it. wasn't an unpleasant experience for them. But I'd never felt... I'm 53, Ben. I'd never wielded that amount of power before. And it kind of felt a weird.
Ben Seidman (10:54.659)
Yeah.
Ben Seidman (11:05.836)
I understand, man. And this is why what we do can be, like, should be used very carefully because, 100 % man. Yeah, 100%. But like magic, magic can be fun and light. doesn't always have to be. It just depends on what experience you're trying to deliver for your audience. And I've performed the Oracle system in both directions where it's been very, very serious and we've all been crying and hugging each other afterwards. And I've also done it in a,
Damian (11:12.096)
Yeah, with great power comes great responsibility.
Damian (11:28.898)
Right.
Ben Seidman (11:35.308)
someone can't stop laughing sort of way. just depends on how you as a performer rock it. And Damian, maybe you're just more of a serious person than you thought you were.
Damian (11:43.176)
I'm not sure maybe there's that element, but it's certainly not how I perform normally. Now in the marketing copy that either Matt or I wrote for the Oracle system, we said that you'd kept it a secret for a decade. Honestly, I don't know whether that's true or not. But if it is, assuming it is, because we must have got it from somewhere. Why did you keep it so close for 10 years? And what made you want to share it with everyone?
Ben Seidman (11:48.163)
there.
Damian (12:09.376)
What makes that thing with a trick that you release that you're like, this is now ready for more people than me?
Ben Seidman (12:14.958)
Yeah, well, I spent many years not releasing anything just because I was purely focused on developing magic and performing it myself. And it wasn't until the Oracle system that I even started toying with the idea of putting some of my ideas out into the world for other magicians to perform if they wanted to. so part of it was that. The other part of it was the fact that Oracle system is a very serious
Damian (12:18.914)
Mmm.
Ben Seidman (12:44.716)
routine. mean, it is powerful whether it's going to be really emotionally impactful or whether you're going to perform it in a more light manner. And I knew that exactly what you said with great power comes great responsibility. And so I was just careful about it. But then with, you know, more popularity in magic of performing in a style that used more, let's just call them
Damian (12:45.634)
Mm.
Ben Seidman (13:13.088)
magical thinking type items or ideas like tarot cards and pendulums and things like that as that become became a little more popular, you know people like Jared Kopp and Luke Jermay and some of these great bizarre performers who Yeah, of course. Yeah as that sort of permeated into our world a little bit more it felt it felt more like it was kind of right to release it and also like usually I only release something if I've if if I'm ready to
Damian (13:27.01)
theatrical close up in a way.
Ben Seidman (13:42.958)
let it go and also enough magicians and friends and peers have like asked me, hey, can I, can I perform this? Can I play with that idea? And I'm just so specific about what I want to share that one, I want it to be ready to go. I don't want to just come up with an idea, perform it a couple of times and then release it. I want it to be really worked in so that if someone does buy something I've published, they get an enormous amount of value. Like
Damian (13:57.826)
Mm.
Damian (14:04.661)
Yeah.
Ben Seidman (14:12.618)
Like permanent record for example. Yes, it's a card trick and it's a cool card trick, but I wanted to deliver ideas within that product that like could be applied to many other things and like some of the little Easter eggs on that if you just listen to the download are in my opinion way more powerful than even the trick by itself. So so yeah, I want to make sure that if I'm putting something out, it's it's really dynamite because I make a great living as a performer. I don't need to release things.
Damian (14:39.914)
Sure.
Ben Seidman (14:42.07)
So if I do, I want it to just be awesome.
Damian (14:46.626)
That's a good mantra for life, isn't it? For anybody that's listening that doesn't know what the plot of permanent record, essentially, there's a card printed on the back of a bicycle box that changes in their hand into their selected card. Now, when you start playing with an idea like that, what comes first? Are you thinking, I want something to change in their hand? Are you thinking, there's a 10 of hearts on the back of a bike deck.
What can I do to change that? What was first?
Ben Seidman (15:19.182)
Yeah, I mean, the basic routine was not only is it the easiest thing I've ever published, and you could, it's basically self-working if you want to do just the simplest version. And that is not the case with everything that I create. To the contrary, actually, some of the things I, well, especially what I perform in my own show that is unreleased is actually very hard. And part of that is just because I think that that will deliver the impact I want. And also,
Damian (15:44.898)
Sure.
Ben Seidman (15:45.152)
Some of it is selfishly so that no one can steal it because no one else is going to put in the time. Yeah.
Damian (15:48.93)
gonna be bothered to do it. It's like, when I got Parlor Tricks, when Morgan and Wes put that out, I read it and I was like, nobody apart from you two is ever gonna do this. Doesn't mean you can't learn from the book though.
Ben Seidman (16:00.202)
It's a great way to keep material safe. Yes, a hundred percent. And, and I also kind of vowed to anything that I put out, I want people to actually be able to do. I mean, one of the earlier things I published was a coin vanish called Alchemy that I put out with theory 11. And that is, I mean, of everything I've published, that is the thing that people come up to me, you know, at magic conventions or whatever and say, I love that trick and, try to do, there's no way I can do it. And I say, I get it. I understand. Almost no one can do it, but.
Damian (16:10.679)
Sure.
Ben Seidman (16:29.11)
Anything that I've published recently, including my upcoming releases are things that I really feel are within the range of what any magician can perform. Like if you put in a little bit of time and you have even basic shops, I want you to be able to do some real miracles because that's how we share joy with people, right? So I want it to be accessible.
Damian (16:51.734)
for sure, but then you also build in options. It's almost like the Apple fitness thing where you've got the fit guy and then the not so fit guy and then really not so fit guy and you can follow whoever you need to when you're working out that with permanent.
Ben Seidman (17:04.13)
Yeah, all of the non-fit guys, all of the non-fit guys are magicians,
Damian (17:08.562)
He's got his playing card bay tight there, at a vest. But with permanent record, for example, spoiler, there's a gaff deck that makes forcing really easy. But you also will talk about a way to do it with a regular deck. so, depending on your level, there are options for you.
Ben Seidman (17:20.224)
yeah.
Ben Seidman (17:28.822)
Yeah, that is my goal is to make it so that any magician, that any person could learn that trick. And if you are an amateur and you do almost no magic, I want you to be able to perform it. And if you're a worker and you want to add this into your repertoire and you have great chops, here's five other options for things that I do with it.
Damian (17:46.686)
Yeah, Yeah, because a worker may not want to have one deck that is gaffed to force a card.
Ben Seidman (17:53.344)
Yeah, I almost never use the gaff deck that it comes with. But I talked to plenty of people who love using it because they're like, I don't have to think about it. But no, for me, I'm going to just classic force a card or in some cases, psychologically force a card. for me, that's way more practical, but I want whoever performs it to be comfortable as well. So I tried to think of everything.
Damian (18:00.274)
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Damian (18:06.421)
Meh.
Damian (18:15.21)
Yep, absolutely. If you're doing it for your friends and family, you don't need to worry about pocket management. You can bring out that deck and kill them with it. know, with Penn and Teller twice now, do you have a specific like preparation process before you start thinking about what you're going to do for it? Basically, are you actually trying to fool them or are you thinking of the best routine to do for that vehicle?
Ben Seidman (18:21.144)
Sure. Yeah.
Ben Seidman (18:45.666)
Yes.
Damian (18:47.5)
Good, thank you. Moving on.
Ben Seidman (18:54.584)
So look, as someone who had, I've done that show twice. I have zero trophies. I'm not mad. did think that both routines had a pretty good chance of fooling them. And I think one of the two actually did in my opinion, but this is all subjective, right? yeah, I chose the two routines for very different reasons. The first one I did was my handling of Ring Watch Wallet.
Damian (18:54.794)
What? No, if you don't want to, it's fine.
Damian (19:13.452)
course.
Ben Seidman (19:24.494)
which has been a closely guarded secret for many years. It fools magicians, it fools laypeople. It is in almost every single show I do, whether that is formal closeup, stage, parlor, I've done it on TV. I mean, it's just a real workhorse for me. So I wanted to share that. What'd say?
Damian (19:38.562)
If only someone would release that. If only someone would release that. It'd be great. It'd be great. It's a good trick. It's a good trick.
Ben Seidman (19:43.254)
Yeah, maybe someday it's possible. It's very possible. I'll think about it. So that routine I wanted to put out there because it's pretty bulletproof as far as rewatching it on video. In my mind, it was safe to do on TV and also because it had so much standup built in, I felt like I would stick out from other magicians and it would kind of give...
Damian (19:59.234)
Right.
Damian (20:05.538)
Mm.
Ben Seidman (20:10.402)
potential buyers who might be interested in hiring a magician, it would give them a sense of what my show actually looks like. Cause it was a good, a good example. Yeah. And it was, yeah, it was a very good example of what it is like to see me alive. and so that's exactly why I wanted that tape. And that's been very helpful for me. And the other one completely different. was this effect that I created for the virtual show during the pandemic. And, I genuinely did not even play.
Damian (20:16.937)
And it wasn't a card trick.
Damian (20:24.042)
Yeah.
Ben Seidman (20:38.562)
I had no plans to do it on Fool Us. I had no plans to do Fool Us a second time, but I'd come up with this trick and I was showing some magician friends. Word had spread a little bit and so a couple of heavy hitters had texted me and said like, yo, what is this thing you're doing? And so I invited a handful of them on Zoom to see me do it, including Teller. I was like, Teller, I came up with this cool trick. You might get a kick out of it. And he wrote back and he was like, don't you dare invite me to this thing.
please come and do it on the show again. And he was really buttering me up too. I was like, man, you must've had some clunkers on that last season. He was really, really trying. But look, I was honored to go back. No, no, no, no, But yeah, it was fun to get to do and it's really a snapshot in time of what it was like to perform virtually during the pandemic.
Damian (21:10.112)
How lovely.
Damian (21:19.904)
Save us Ben, save us!
Damian (21:33.73)
What excites you and, no, there's more to the question than that, just to clarify. Yeah, I know, I know. I realized I paused slightly too long and it was almost uncomfortable. What excites, I'm British, it's okay. What excites you and or annoys or frustrates you about magic today?
Ben Seidman (21:40.024)
Thank God this is G rated, right?
Ben Seidman (21:48.512)
Almost, I'm very uncomfortable Damien.
Yeah.
Ben Seidman (22:02.19)
What excites me and or what annoys me in Magic today? I'm gonna start with what excites me and then I'm never gonna answer the other one. What excites me is creating new things and putting them up in front of people and delivering that experience. That really excites me. I'm doing this new show that I've been writing in my mind for like 17 years. I was always...
Damian (22:02.242)
You can answer that in any way you wish.
Damian (22:12.597)
Okay, cool.
Ben Seidman (22:31.01)
too busy to really focus on it because it's not the type of show that I could perform at a corporate event or a college or, you know, the things that pay my bills. Right, right. This is really a theatrical show. And since I'm semi-known in the magic world, but I'm not properly famous at all, like I can walk down the street without getting recognized every time. You could bet money all day.
Damian (22:33.473)
Mm-hmm.
Damian (22:38.858)
your regular money makers. Yeah.
Ben Seidman (22:57.612)
saying that I'm gonna go to the grocery store and no one's gonna say, hey, are you Ben Seidman? Once in a while, like once in a while it'll happen, but it's very rare. So I'm not famous and touring a show like that is hard to make money with if you're not famous or don't have a huge following, so I didn't focus on it. But I've finally gotten to the point where I feel comfortable with the work that I have that I can turn down shows to focus on writing this show. And that's what I did last year and I just got it up on its feet.
Damian (23:08.535)
Yeah.
Ben Seidman (23:27.714)
Damien, this has been, for me, pure joy. It's such a theatrical stretch. It's more of a one-man show than just a commercial magic show, despite the fact that it is funny and magical. And that has been so exciting for me.
Damian (23:37.524)
Mm-hmm.
Sure.
Damian (23:44.074)
And how do you work with something like that? Is that solo or are you leaning on script writing friends and magical advisement friends and...
Ben Seidman (23:56.306)
great question. Yeah, really great question. I don't think this show would be up on its feet at all if it wasn't for Travis Santel, who's one of my closest friends, an incredible writer. He has a magic background and a mentalist background, but primarily he makes his I mean, he doesn't do magic shows. He makes his living as a writer, writing movies and TV shows. And, you know, he writes books as well. But he's tuned into the magic word.
world, like he's done a lot of work with Apollo Robbins and he like he wrote Delgadio an email after he saw In and of itself and Delgadio was like, can I put this in the book? Like, just because it was so thoughtful. He's just a brilliant writer. so Travis, I just vomited all of my ideas at him and he helped me shape them and actually figure out what the show was about.
Damian (24:26.178)
show.
Damian (24:34.978)
Uh-huh.
Damian (24:40.917)
Okay.
Ben Seidman (24:50.958)
And he helped me structure it and gave me some killer lines. I mean, I would have done the show if it wasn't for him, but it would have probably been terrible. So I like, I owe a huge debt of gratitude to Travis for helping me, helping me get this thing up on its feet. And so he helped in that, yeah. So he helped in that like structural way. And I also pitched some other ideas to friends and.
Damian (25:09.622)
Big up Travis!
Ben Seidman (25:20.13)
you know, on Zoom and on the phone, just talked through some things. And then also huge debt of gratitude to Michael Mills, who is an awesome producer, friend, and great magician himself. And he is the one who produced the first run of the shows to get it up on its feet. He started doing shows with Simon Cornell, Glitches in Reality, Simon's show. And he toured that a little bit and then told me that he was interested in working with me. And I said, man.
I've been writing this show, this is the perfect excuse to actually get mine together. Yeah, exactly.
Damian (25:57.218)
And so what's happening next with the show? Are there plans for it for this year?
Ben Seidman (26:02.54)
Yeah, my, I'm ending, what I have set up right now is ending with a month long run in Chicago at the Rhapsody Theater. And so that is in June, tickets are on sale now. If anyone is in the Chicago area and wants to see my life's work, it's happening Thursday, Friday, Saturday, all throughout June. And then also in order to sort of prepare myself for each step.
I'm doing a two-week run at Liberty Magic in Pittsburgh and that starts very soon that starts in in early March so tickets are on sale for that as well if you're in the Pittsburgh area and my goal was first to get it up on its feet with these first two weekends and then to get to the next stage in Pittsburgh and and my goal is by the time I'm rocking it in June in Chicago that it really does feel like a
a machine because it is a very ambitious show. It's much more complicated and difficult than what I normally do, which is amazing because what I normally do is still pretty insane. But this is like another level for a few different reasons. And also my friend, Stephen Nicholas, great mentalist. He is hands on the ground with me, helping me out just like on the tech side of things because there's so much going on and so many moving parts.
Damian (27:07.745)
Yeah, yeah.
Ben Seidman (27:25.388)
So he has been amazing and Sarah Friedman was stage managing it when we did our first run in Saratoga and in Manchester, New Hampshire. So yeah, it's been a collaborative effort, which is incredible.
Damian (27:38.432)
now but you ready for the segue
Ben Seidman (27:41.772)
Yes, is this my way down to what I don't like in Magic right now?
Damian (27:45.058)
No, you said you didn't want to answer that. I'm going to... So what frustrates you? Or a noisy?
Ben Seidman (27:46.862)
You know, I'll tell you what, I'll answer it really, really quickly. What frustrates me? Yeah, I think, look, I care about magic so, so much. And I think there's nothing wrong with wanting to become famous or increase your numbers on social media. But people who are willing to sacrifice what is actually magical about magic in order to do that, I think irks me. So like, you know.
The content machine requires videos all of the time. You know, the people who want to grow their social media numbers, a lot of these people are exposing magic or just doing a ton of it. And it's not very good. It's not very original. It's all stuged. A lot of it's BS. Some of it flashes. And putting that stuff into the world to me is just like pollution. Like why wouldn't you want to just hold back and, and actually only publish videos of things that are good.
And if you want to break something in and grow, do it in front of live audiences. But then again, I'm a dinosaur. The world is changing around me. So that's just my opinion on it. I want to just focus on quality over quantity. But to each their own.
Damian (28:46.774)
Yeah.
Damian (29:00.13)
If I was going to do a show later in the year and I wanted a solid seven minute card routine that involved multiple different kind of aspects of magic and an ending that really would be difficult to beat, is that...
Ben Seidman (29:19.884)
I would do copper film flying.
Damian (29:23.234)
No card trick, no wires. Is there anything you could, sorry, anything you recommend? It was good, wasn't it? It was smooth,
Ben Seidman (29:25.432)
Sorry.
Ben Seidman (29:34.362)
I see what you're doing, Damien. I see what you're doing. It was really, really smooth transition. I wrote a book!
Damian (29:39.968)
Yeah. You fucked up, I've got it, it's here.
Ben Seidman (29:44.43)
I did it. I wrote a book. And it's a book on one trick for the same reason that I learned to play bass instead of guitar. Less strings. Just seemed easier. One trick.
Damian (29:55.522)
One trick in... how many pages?
Ben Seidman (30:00.462)
I don't know, 50? 49. That's actually the trick is that the number of pages slowly increased over time. It's part of the method.
Damian (30:01.314)
49, 50, 50, 50 pages.
Damian (30:10.338)
Now, it's a book, but as we've said, it's trick where, let's see how I A selected card rises from a glass, vanishes, reappears under a participant and a corner is torn off. God, go on. Thought of card.
Ben Seidman (30:29.036)
You're already wrong, Damien. You're already wrong. It's not a selected card. It's not a selected card. Boom! There you go.
Damian (30:37.888)
Okay, where a thought of card rises from the glass, vanishes, reappears under a participant and their corner is torn off and that corner is no, and is transported to the butt pocket of someone in the audience. It is spectacular. I won't tell you who, but three members, and we're going to call this sounds a bit grandiose. Three members of the senior management team at Vanishing Inc. are working on it and considering putting it in their show. Frankly, that happens rarely.
Ben Seidman (30:49.912)
Thank you, buddy.
Damian (31:07.424)
What inspired the routine?
Ben Seidman (31:10.732)
yeah, so yeah, so look, is a high impact piece. I wanted to do something that was completely crazy. I love magic that happens on people's bodies, things that appear inside their pockets or disappear from their pockets, hence all the pickpocketing stuff. This is all very difficult. It's so hard to learn these techniques and good putpocketing, like putting something in someone's pocket without them knowing, very challenging and it's so situation dependent.
Damian (31:38.774)
Sure.
Ben Seidman (31:38.856)
And you also have to get close to them. And I wanted a routine. Yeah, I know. Right. I wanted a routine where something could appear in someone's pocket, anyone in the audience far away from you. And you, you, you know, like just choose someone randomly and something just appears in their pocket without having to do any body loading. So that was the, that was the idea from the beginning because I was, I was doing a lot of body loading and I still do.
Damian (31:41.846)
Yeah, people.
Damian (32:04.734)
okay.
Ben Seidman (32:08.29)
But certain circumstances make it very difficult. And I just wanted this effect to be someone thinks of a playing card and it vanishes and appears in someone's pocket in the audience. I just wanted it to be like that absolute madness of an effect. And it just kind of grew and blossomed from that. And the phases just kept coming. And I realized that you could, guess, spoiler alert, I'll talk a little bit about the method.
but I realized you could do these phases that seem so powerful that they must be stuged, but they're not. I realized you could do this if you're layering methods and using a multiple reality principle. So this routine does use dual reality, but it's not just a dual reality. It's three different dual realities stacked on top of each other. And that makes it impossible to reconstruct for the audience, completely amazing.
And every single person who's living in a slightly different reality than the rest of the audience has this very, very grounded view of what's happening, where they don't feel like they're in on it. They're still fooled very, very badly. so that's, you know, behind the scenes, you have all of these things working to create this completely impossible mirror.
Damian (33:33.058)
Dual reality is a part of the big picture, but why do you think some people are scared of it? And what have you done with this release to, because I think you have, you have with me anyway, allayed that fear.
Ben Seidman (33:52.504)
good, I'm glad. Hey, as long as we're not doing a trick that makes everyone cry like your previous experience. Yeah.
Damian (33:58.504)
I did earlier. One person is not really crying, but they think they are. That's why.
Ben Seidman (34:04.802)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Damian (34:07.308)
So why do you think people are scared of it and what have you done to?
Ben Seidman (34:12.576)
I think people are scared of what they don't understand, myself included. If there's a method that I can't wrap my head around, of course I'm not gonna wanna use it, because if I can't understand it, how can I go through the necessary steps that will lead me to the effect? first what I try to do is make the effect itself very simple and straightforward. A spectator looks at...
Damian (34:13.366)
Fix it.
Damian (34:23.618)
Mm.
Ben Seidman (34:41.814)
fan of cards after shuffling and examining them, thinks of a card in the deck and then shuffles them again and we place the cards into a wine glass. They simply name the card that they saw on the deck and it rises up. It's like pretty simple, pretty straightforward, right? They then hold on to that card in and amongst a couple of other cards and it vanishes from their hands. And then when they stand up, it's sitting underneath them, which freaks out the spectator very much.
Then I rip off a corner and they actually tear off the corner themselves so that it's not switched. They're holding onto it. And I take that card and press it into my hand and it disappears. And then I asked for someone in the audience and look around and have someone raise their hand and whoever raises their hand, I point to them and have the card, you know, essentially appear in their pocket. And then the corners are matched up. you know, explaining it doesn't sound all that great. You really have to see what the effect looks like. But.
So to answer your question, long story long, the effect itself is three very specific, clear effects. And then the method is actually not that complicated. It's just a couple of methods at the same time. but it's, it's not that complex. So I've tried to break it down in such a way that it's actually really easy to learn and, and hopefully builds your confidence as a performer so that you can actually try it out and understand why it works and
how easy it is to essentially perform if you are willing to just take that leap of faith and try using multiple realities.
Damian (36:16.33)
It's kind of modular, isn't it? Because in the seven minute video, full performance of it that people get, you're in a parlor situation and you're doing rising card and spoiler, there's a threat. I think most of this trick, and correct me if I'm wrong, let's be real. Most of the people listening to this podcast, most of the people that shop at Vanishing Ink do not have theatrical shows. But I was thinking with this,
Ben Seidman (36:42.659)
Mm.
Damian (36:46.146)
particular routine. If you put the rising card bit to one side, the rest of it would work in a bar with your friends, it would work at Thanksgiving when families came round. There isn't, it's not a, you don't have to be doing paid shows to do this, right?
Ben Seidman (36:57.048)
Totally.
Ben Seidman (37:03.214)
Oh, 100%. Yeah, yeah, this is a very, the routine's very practical and very hard hitting and could be done in almost any situation. Now, is it a good trick for one or two people? It's gonna be a lot better for more people, for sure. You really want like a group, but that group could be small. You know, I've done this for like seven or eight people at a house party. So yeah, it doesn't have to be a theatrical environment. A lot of the material I develop, I can perform for,
Damian (37:24.29)
Right.
Ben Seidman (37:32.302)
a handful of people or in front of hundreds of people. And it needs to be versatile because I'm performing in so many different situations. So this is great. Like, yeah, if you don't want to do the rising card, throw a deck of cards in your pocket and like, can do, you can do something that hits harder than a normal card trick exponentially. You know, this is not, this is not really a card trick, right? It's just, yeah. Yeah, it's insane. And,
Damian (37:56.042)
Yeah, yeah, it's a multiple, the multiplier is vast.
Ben Seidman (38:02.312)
And yeah, mean, one of the things that makes me really happy is hearing magicians come up to me after the show. For example, I performed at Blackpool and lectured at Blackpool this last year. I'd never been. And so I did my hour long show and then I did an hour long lecture and I got to perform this for, you know, however many thousands of magicians were there. And it was awesome just having a room full of people be completely fooled over this effect.
but then also explaining the method and have people get so excited because they're like, we can actually do this trick. This is not a pipe dream. This is real. So that felt really cool. Like as I write in the book, I'm very protective of my material, but at a certain point I realized if more people have access to something like this, then more people can share that amazement and joy farther than I can spread as a individual person. So I think it's like.
Damian (38:36.898)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ben Seidman (38:58.102)
it's cool to get to put this into the world. And I'm so happy that all of these people who bought the book at Blackpool came up to me or have messaged me and said like, I tried it out. It's insane. I can't believe it works. It's amazing. I'm doing it. And that feels really great because it's like a dude in Ireland and like someone in Sweden. Like it's so cool that this is having a new life because of this book.
Damian (39:22.722)
That's so cool. What level of performer did you have in mind when creating the book? And what foundational skills do you think someone would need to perform it successfully?
Ben Seidman (39:38.222)
Yeah, really great question. Let me just be upfront and honest here. If you've never performed before, like you've done maybe like one trick and that's it, this is probably not the book for you. I mean, you might enjoy reading it, but you're not gonna put this in your show if you don't perform at all. But if you're a hobbyist, this will totally work for you if you do perform for people, even if it's at the pub or for friends.
Damian (39:41.395)
Mm.
Ben Seidman (40:06.516)
The answer is when I came up with this, I didn't have a specific performer in mind because I came up with this for myself. Right? So the only performer I had in mind was me and my own level of skill. And this lands, this, this lands pretty like mid to low, far as like skill necessary to perform in my opinion. but there is some required, for example, like, can you do an Elmsley count? If you can, if you can learn an Elmsley count,
Damian (40:14.379)
Right.
Damian (40:17.877)
Pants open.
Damian (40:28.93)
Mm-hmm.
Ben Seidman (40:36.374)
You can do this trick. It's more about, it's more about the understanding of the concept than it is about doing like knuckle busting sleight of hand. There really is no knuckle busting sleight of hand. It's within the realm of what I would say most people who are listening to this podcast can already do comfortably. And I love that. Like I love, I love relying on language and ideas as a method above sleight of hand, because then you can.
Damian (40:37.57)
Mm-hmm.
Damian (40:45.463)
Yeah.
Damian (40:55.106)
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Ben Seidman (41:05.262)
pepper in slights and everything builds on itself. So instead of just trying to fool someone with a move, you're fooling them with an idea. And that is what is really exciting to me.
Damian (41:09.506)
Peace.
Damian (41:17.28)
Yeah, for me when I read it.
There's more to the book than the method and the routine. Beyond the technical method, what philosophical approach to magic do you hope readers take away from it? What do you want people to take away from it?
Ben Seidman (41:37.645)
that we.
Yeah. I mean, this is such a good example of magicians, oftentimes stopping. I'm going to take that again. What do I want people to take from this? I mean, this is such a good example of why we shouldn't stop thinking too soon. You just add a little bit extra time. just poke it from a different angle. You just look at a problem that you're trying to solve from a different perspective and
suddenly it can blow the whole top right off the thing and make something a million times better. Like, for example.
This trick by itself kind of encapsulates my theory on magic, right? Again, now word salad, buddy. This trick by itself really is a perfect example of how I approach method and performance, which is I wanna make something that's very entertaining, but also that like just hurts people's brains. Like I'm not happy if people are like,
Wow, that was a cool magic trick. Like I want to have people like rocking back and forth in the audience because they can't cope with what just happened. That's what I'm trying to achieve. And I think, I think the principles of destruction routine really does hit that.
Damian (42:56.994)
everything.
Ben Seidman (43:03.736)
There's your poll quote.
Damian (43:05.218)
There's my poor quote, thank you. Now, Ben Seidman, last time you were on the show in 2018, we didn't end it in the way we end it now. I listened back to our episode to say, I wonder what his answers to the last four questions are to see whether they've changed. But I didn't even ask you the last four questions. I'm going to now, because we're out of time.
Ben Seidman (43:25.09)
Great, I cannot wait. I cannot wait, Damian. I will say before you ask me those questions, This book is hopefully a very fun read. It's an easy read and the method itself is really achievable. Like you really can take this and do it. And I hope that people really do. I hope that some of the people listening to this go like, yeah, I've seen what Ben does.
Damian (43:29.654)
Yes.
Ben Seidman (43:54.102)
I believe that what he would come up with would be good. I'm gonna take a chance and buy this thing. I hope that happens because I think people will dig the method and dig performing it. I really do.
Damian (44:08.874)
And that's the real for social media. Perfect. You're such a pro. Do you know what? I asked Matt Zapp, who handles our social media, I said, I sent him the questions and I said, is there any way I should kind of steer him or nudge him to get the good clips for you for socials? And he said, just let Ben be Ben. He'll handle it.
Ben Seidman (44:12.238)
Okay, well, you got lots to choose from. All right, hit me with the questions, buddy.
Ben Seidman (44:33.518)
I mean, I hope that that works, man. I can be very long winded. That's the only concern.
Damian (44:39.02)
No, no, no, it's got up to like one minute, 30 seconds now or something you're allowed to do on a reel, it's fine. Four quick fire questions. Ready? Favorite pizza topping.
Ben Seidman (44:44.526)
All right, cool.
Ben Seidman (44:49.848)
Favorite pizza topping? Well, I don't really eat pizza anymore. So that's a really tough one. Yeah, one I did. God, I got into this. This is gonna be very controversial. I got into this like pineapple and jalapeno kick, which is, I know completely absurd to most people, but it was pretty good.
Damian (44:55.446)
When you did.
Damian (45:05.526)
Okay.
Damian (45:09.395)
No, I have a jar of pineapple and jalapeno relish pickle in the fridge. Favorite movie.
Ben Seidman (45:14.784)
Awesome. Favorite movie. When I look at my favorite movies, it is just very, very clear when I was a teenager. Like I love my favorite film. Like my answer was always Memento, Christopher Nolan's early film. And I still think that is a phenomenal movie.
Damian (45:19.426)
Mm-hmm.
Damian (45:26.514)
John Hughes?
Damian (45:33.014)
Okay.
Ben Seidman (45:41.336)
Can I just leave it at that and that way I don't have to, it's still a great movie. Okay. sorry. I'm supposed to say, now you see me three. I'm already in trouble.
Damian (45:42.722)
Yeah, yeah, it's still a great movie. Favorite person or people that make music? Oh, yeah, no, yeah, yeah. You contractually obliged to say that you don't even know what it's called. It might not be called that.
Ben Seidman (45:53.9)
Yeah, yeah, I have no idea how the movie's gonna turn out, by the way. We'll find out. I mean, all I know is what we did on the magic side, and the goal was to try to use minimal CGI and actually do a lot of practical magic, which is so difficult, especially because there's tons in the movie. But yeah, that was the idea. So we'll figure out how it looks.
Damian (46:11.519)
what fun.
Damian (46:18.582)
Favorite person or people that make music?
Ben Seidman (46:24.076)
For many years that was modest mouse and I still love them but I'm on a huge alt-J kick right now. I think they make some of greatest stuff I've heard in a long time.
Ben Seidman (46:36.046)
You don't know a alt J? You're a terrible Brit. They're incredible, man. They're really good. I've seen them live multiple times. They're excellent.
Damian (46:42.21)
Alt J
Okay, that's my homework, thank you. No, this is one of my favorite bits of this book. shoot!
Ben Seidman (46:54.574)
That's the whole quote. That's the Reel for Instagram right there.
Damian (46:54.786)
It's like a tripod! God damn it!
Damian (47:04.13)
It's on a tripod.
Ben Seidman (47:05.228)
Hey, thanks for tuning into the Vanishing Inc. podcast, everybody.
Damian (47:08.022)
Yeah, he's so professional. I'm a bit wonky now and the camera's too high. Anyway, final question.
Ben Seidman (47:14.318)
I like how you're just kind of adjusting yourself trying to get in frame now.
Damian (47:18.614)
Final question, who would you rather fight, one massive Andi or a hundred tiny Joshuas?
Ben Seidman (47:23.47)
I want to fight one massive, no, I want to fight them both at the same time, one giant Andi and a bunch of tiny Josh J's because I feel like I could turn them against each other and just politely walk out myself.
Damian (47:35.454)
how you've thought about that man.
Ben Seidman (47:37.209)
yeah, that was the only one I was prepared for.
Damian (47:40.226)
Ben Seidman, your new book, Principles of Destruction is probably available now or if not really, really soon on flashingandmagic.com. Thank you very much. And we'll put links to tickets for the Rhapsody Theatre and the other one in the show notes. But should people want to keep an eye on what you're doing, how should they do that?
Ben Seidman (48:03.146)
I am using Instagram more than any other social media platform, so if people want to DM me there, that is currently the best way to find me or to see clips of things. If you want to see any of the Vanity Fair videos, those are on YouTube. You can just type in my name and Vanity Fair. And the third one dropped not too long ago, so there's new fun stuff out there.
Damian (48:25.9)
Ben Seidman, thank you very much for giving us so much of your time. I do appreciate it. And you, man.
Ben Seidman (48:29.486)
Thank you so much, Damien. You take care.
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